The Art of Authenticity in The Digital Age with Gretchen Andrew
- Savannah Rose Johnson, BA, CLC, RTT.P
- Oct 3
- 32 min read
Updated: Oct 4
In this episode of the Eclipse Evolution podcast, host Savannah Rose engages in a deep conversation with artist Gretchen Andrew about the complexities of artistic expression, the impact of digital alteration on self-perception, and the societal pressures surrounding beauty standards. They explore the journey of becoming an artist, the significance of authenticity, and the tension between inner self and external expectations. The discussion also delves into the role of technology in shaping beauty ideals, the importance of healing over fixing, and the influence of relationships on self-image. Ultimately, the conversation emphasizes the need for self-acceptance and the celebration of individuality in a world increasingly influenced by digital aesthetics.
For more information about Gretchen, please visit the links below.
Website: https://www.gretchenandrew.com/
Twitter: https://x.com/gretchenandrew
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gretchenandrew/
Stay Connected with Savannah Rose
Website: www.eclipseevolution.com
Podcast Instagram: @eclipseevolutionllc
Savannah's Instagram: @the_savannahrose
YouTube: @the_savannahrose
TikTok: @the_savannahrose
Below is the companion video, timestamps, full transcript, and also available streaming platforms.
Thanks for listening!
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Artistic Identity
03:02 The Impact of Digital Alteration
05:51 Navigating Beauty Standards and Algorithms
08:54 The Pressure of Perfection in Social Media
11:48 Healing vs. Fixing: A Personal Journey
14:43 Embodied Knowledge and Self-Acceptance
24:57 Navigating Relationships and Self-Perception
29:04 The Evolution of Beauty Standards in the Digital Age
34:58 The Impact of AI on Beauty and Identity
39:11 Embracing Authenticity and Self-Love
43:22 Cultural Reflections on Beauty and Individuality
Podcast Streaming Platforms:
Companion Video:
Transcript:
Savannah Rose (00:01.797)
Hello, hello, welcome to the Eclipse Evolution podcast. I'm your host, The Savanah Rose. Thank you so much for joining us today for tuning in. Whether video or audio, we're grateful to have you here. And I'm super grateful and excited to announce my special guest today, Gretchen Andrew, tuning in from Utah across the country. gosh, y'all, I wish you could have seen her view. I'm so envious, but I'm so glad that she's taking time out of her day to share her craft, to share her mission.
message. It's something that I hold closely to my heart as a fellow artist and Gretchen thank you so much for being here.
Gretchen (00:39.192)
Thank you so much for having me and hello everybody all over the world from Park City, Utah.
Savannah Rose (00:44.699)
Yay! Amazing! So Gretchen, artist. I know that's very much a title, but I feel like as artists it's so much more about what's in our heart and sharing something and expressing something through a type of medium that is close to us. Can you tell us more about what is close to you, how you came upon this journey of sharing your art with the world?
Gretchen (01:09.1)
Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important that you brought up that term of this artist. It sort of has like no meaning and a lot of meaning. And some people really struggle with using it to identify. When I decided to become an artist and that's really what it was for me is I was like, I'm going to be and become this thing. And yes, there's a set of skills and there's a fine art world, but more than anything, there's a lens. And for me, I was working in a traditional job.
but I knew that I wanted to have a life's work, not a work-life balance. And I think the distinction of feeling and really believing, I guess more than anything at that time, hoping that an artist is someone who is celebrated for being themselves. And that lens is something that we can bring to all types of work, but for me has also involved the traditional.
painting, drawing sort of aspects of that as well.
Savannah Rose (02:10.091)
so well said. my gosh, I got chills when you said that about just someone who celebrated for being themselves because I think you're so right. think there is almost, at least I've observed this and even experienced it myself, like I think there can be a tendency with that label of artist to have like a piece of imposter syndrome with it. think it's something I've observed where it's like, if I'm not doing this type of cool art, is this who I am? But I think you're so right. I think it's about just someone who
and this is authentic in that expression and I think you're so right like with that priority being not just the work-life balance but something that you're really making your life and making something that is I would say like close to your heart but just cannot be divorced from your purpose either I think that's so important
Gretchen (03:05.133)
Yeah, I agree with that. like that.
Savannah Rose (03:09.275)
I'm so curious because I know one of your highlighted pieces of work right now is the Facetune portraits. I think that's so curious and just so relevant when it comes down to this modern age where we have all these different apps and mediums and different things to tweak. not, not, I mean tweak, but also like full blown change and transform what it is that we are taking, like a snapping a photo with our phone or even video of seeing this happen. I'm curious like how your Facetune
portrait series has come to life and like what motivated that series.
Gretchen (03:45.261)
Yeah, so just to speak briefly on what this series looks like is if you're familiar with the term facetune, they're basically these filters that men use them. There's an app called Manly. There's an actual app called Facetune. Sometimes they're just filters on social media. Sometimes they're a filter on Zoom video conferencing called Touch Up My Appearance. They're sets of adjustments to our faces and bodies that are made to make us look more appealing or more beautiful. And they also...
homogenize us, compress us into a single look, and also have a lot of value judgments within them as we basically are all normalizing to this single international idea of what beauty is as a result. And so my work deals with the tension between how we actually look and how these apps change us to look and really expose what is normally a digital and invisible process and make it a messy and visible way of understanding.
technologies. So this really came about for me because I was thinking about the literal shapes that we can toward ourselves into, especially as women, but I think it's anybody anytime we're told that we should be different. And I was reading Women Who Run with Wolves, which I'm sure that many of your listeners know about. It's a very pivotal text around reconnecting with your inner self, reconnecting with nature and
Savannah Rose (05:02.115)
Hmm.
Gretchen (05:12.844)
trying to identify and ultimately shed expectations that don't serve you. And so I was thinking about this in my personal life. I was exploring these algorithms. I was exploring these different technologies. And so FaceTune portraits really became my way of saying that this is messy, that anytime we are told to be different than we are to be more beautiful, to be younger, to be like a different race, a different gender, a different socioeconomic.
value to live somewhere else, whatever it is, whether these expectations are from our family or ourselves or society or algorithms, it's messy to try and exist in that tension between who we are and who we're told to be.
Savannah Rose (05:55.963)
So well said, messy. That's such a good way to put it. That's so generous, think, too. Yeah, gosh, you're so right. It makes me think back to...
Because I think when you have this perpetual exposure to all these ways that you can change yourself, like you said, whether it's through pressure maybe you receive internally in the family system or externally in that kind of societal aspect, peer pressure, or even just becoming exposed to an app and being like, well, what can this do? And then that kind of natural...
I say natural, but like that kind of natural urge to conform sometimes that can go back to just our survival techniques. Cause I think that that's something that I teach a lot of my clients is like this urge to want to look like, be like, whatever is something that we're almost wired to have. It's something that we have to kind of consciously overcome because back in the day it was a means of survival. was how we stayed safe in our tribe and mated.
passed on our DNA and weren't exiled and whatnot. So I think anyone who's maybe like struggling with these concepts to know that it's it's not your fault because like you said there's so many ways in which like we are exposed to that kind of pressure and I don't think it's talked about enough about how messy it really can be.
Gretchen (07:22.092)
Yeah, I really love that you brought up the survival instinct within this because these apps give us all the same face and the same body.
And I've been working with the Miss Universe contestants who, know, literally from all over the world, literally like the most gorgeous women that exist. And yet these apps change them and give them the same features. Like Miss Jamaica gets the same body as Miss Philippines gets the same body as, you know, Miss USA, Miss Mexico. And these women should look different. We should look different from each other. And what I see is not just a desire to be beautiful, but as you named it so directly is a desire to fit in.
Savannah Rose (07:39.525)
Thank
Gretchen (08:00.976)
and to be accepted by the algorithm as much as by our peers. And even though we're all ending up with the same face, that's safer to us. It's not about trying to be an individual or trying to be beautiful. It's about being safe. And I want to take this moment to say there's no shaming in anyone here who uses these apps or who decides to get plastic surgery or has any of these things done. My work is really about opening up conversation about
what drives us having it come from a place of fun and empowerment and not a place of insecurity, and also just to have us be investigating what is going on here, especially with younger women who are seeing faces and bodies all over the internet that literally don't exist. Like these bodies and these faces are visually constructed. like, you know, like it's hard enough celebrities and, know, beauty pageants with these impossible beauty standards.
Savannah Rose (08:50.299)
Yeah.
Gretchen (08:59.48)
But even they're not good enough for these apps and the apps modify them and our expectations are just, you know, wildly on literally unreal as a result.
Savannah Rose (09:11.205)
You're so right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think, gosh, one of the things that really touched me when I was, when your team reached out to me and proposed our session today or podcast today, my therapy brain kicked in just then. But it was so interesting because, yeah, gosh, like the, I think almost like the covert nature of these apps where, like you said, like someone can be in person at 10 out of 10, but just the way that these apps are designed to just stay
in motion almost and like you said like pleasing the algorithm it's wild how like you can take someone who's theoretically like a 10 out of 10 and there's still something to change and I know like with my own experience gosh like having been in the modeling industry since I was 13 like a baby like a little girl
Having pictures of myself airbrushed photo shops since I was little, I can totally, I love how you say the word messy, because it's been a huge journey for me, in unwinding from that and like learning a sense of like peace and acceptance and even just like learning identity beyond.
what can be quote fixed in an image. And it's something that I can tell it totally distorted my perception and to this day I still have to be so mindful of pictures that are taken of me. I instantly have that conditioned what is wrong with this image and how can I fix it? Even if there's literally nothing wrong. And I'll go back and look at pictures of myself that I thought were not good five, 10 years ago. And I'm like, this is literally a perfect photo, like what?
Gretchen (10:27.756)
Yeah.
Savannah Rose (10:55.037)
It's wild how much that conditioning is just so covert.
Gretchen (10:58.882)
Yeah, like you're saying, there's no end to it. Like you can take a face-tuned image, a filtered image, and then you can give it to the filter again, and it will keep going and keep going and keep going. It's never like, hey, you're good enough. It never tells you that. It doesn't tell the Miss Universe contestant that. It doesn't tell the Kardashians that. It doesn't tell us that. And it's this game that we can't win. And even when we know what's happening or we have like a cultural awareness or an education that this happens.
Savannah Rose (11:11.387)
There.
Gretchen (11:28.214)
It still disrupts what we should expect. And in playing with these apps and doing them on my own body, one of the things I was really surprised to find is that when I saw the face tuned version, I didn't love it. But then when I would go back to the original image, I also didn't like it. And it, like I had, I had started with an image where I thought I looked great. And then all of a sudden I'm not liking any of it.
Savannah Rose (11:56.784)
Wow.
That's such a good point. Yeah, I think you're so right. I can totally understand that. It's actually kind of funny because I remember one time, think this was, it had to be maybe two years ago now. I remember doing a psilocybin experience and a session. I was undergoing it, I wasn't facilitating. And I remember that was the key takeaway. That was the message that the mushrooms gave me. was like, hey, stop.
Stop using filters, you don't need these. And I'm like, dang, of all the spiritual wisdom and insight that's available in the universe, was stop using filters. And I confess, I'll still do them from time to time. Or if a photo is maybe super dark, I will brighten it up or whatever. I do feel like...
those kind of things to enhance the picture I like to do, like the quality. as far as like you said, you made such a good point, wrote it down, the, gosh, can you read my handwriting? I'm like scribbling and trying to pay attention. like the homogenous blending, like how we're developing this almost like globalized standard, which is crazy to me because.
Gretchen (13:10.264)
you
Savannah Rose (13:13.635)
Like you said, like when it comes down to the Miss Universe contestants, we are from different parts of the world. We're not meant to look the same. And when did that stop being celebrated?
Gretchen (13:25.366)
Yeah, because there've always been beauty standards, but they haven't always been perpetuated internationally with such speed and force as what we're seeing now. And I was just laughing about your psilocybin experience because I once did one where I just couldn't drink coffee afterwards. And again, it seems like of all the messages from the universe, like it's like you drank too much coffee was a weird one. it, you know, like I think some of these sort of small things that have like sort of like big like nervous system resets are.
Savannah Rose (13:30.433)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gretchen (13:54.305)
are really important and you know I think there is that like connection into just what we're like not having to feel inadequate really right like all of this is about like but aside from it changing our faces and our bodies it's like one more thing to do with which we could be like connecting with another person or taking a moment of silence like it's
Savannah Rose (14:20.879)
Yeah.
Gretchen (14:22.062)
It's like just like another thing on the list, especially I think as women, I know that like we seem to be seeing this too. There's an app called Manly and there's so much talk now of like men getting like their jaws broken and remade for plastic surgery for the whole banister podcast world. It's, it's, it's very pervasive. And I think it's just really driven from insecurity, right? And like that's when they're to get us to a good place when we do things.
Savannah Rose (14:41.435)
you
Savannah Rose (14:53.051)
Yeah.
You're so right. think like the, you make such a good point of like, it's not the usage itself that is bad or whatever, but it's like, and anyone who does that is not bad either, but it's like the, the why are you doing this kind of thing? It's almost, it almost falls into like an addiction cycle in a way where it's like someone can drink just because they can, they want like a glass of wine. They enjoy the artistry of wine making and whatnot.
Or there's like the person who's like, I'm drinking this because I'm sad and I want to change how I'm feeling. I think that like that intrinsic motivation piece is so important. And I know even with my clients sometimes like I'll have clients who are like, I want to get lip injections or I want like this procedure or whatever it is. And I'll be like, okay, well, like why? Like what, did you get to that like conclusion? and they're like, I just, if it's like a, I want to invest in myself. I want to like pop off.
like this is something that I've been like saving for and I've always wanted and it's just like a way that I want to treat myself then I feel like more like supportive necessarily because I'm always supportive but I feel more like okay this feels safer to me like this is something that they're like
Gretchen (16:09.806)
See you.
Savannah Rose (16:12.249)
they see like it's not fixing them but something that's like exciting almost of like this is something that like is like almost playful in a way. And then it's like the clients that I really have to dig deep with where they're like this is gonna fix my life or like this is gonna get that person to like me or like this is gonna get me to like me. I'm like whoa that's dangerous because that's when it's like the never-ending kind of loop that we're stuck in.
Gretchen (16:39.18)
Yeah, absolutely. There's sort two things that really made me think of the one. The first is that I worked with some influencers when I first launched this series. I did their portraits and we went through this whole process together.
One of the things that kept coming up is they're like, look, like I talk about travel, I talk about mental health, I talk about politics. They have followings and platforms that aren't entirely based on how they look. But Sid, when they all told me, like when I post pretty photos, when I face to myself, I get more engagement, I get more likes, I get more followers, and then I have more of a platform to share what it is that I want to share. And so these algorithms and these platforms have us caught in this.
Savannah Rose (17:08.219)
you
Savannah Rose (17:18.373)
Mm-hmm.
Gretchen (17:21.972)
cycle where we have to please the algorithm. We have to show it our pretty selves and then by doing that we get the opportunity to reach real people. But it's we're in a dance with the devil here and they all felt that pressure to do that in order to even reach these other things that they wanted to say which I thought was just so interesting. then you like specifically with the lip fillers it comes from like a
Savannah Rose (17:32.557)
Yeah
Savannah Rose (17:44.195)
Mm-hmm.
Gretchen (17:50.159)
I've been thinking about this for quite a while, obviously. The lip fillers are famously more appealing or more desirable from the front than they are from the side. There's this whole duck face thing because if you turn, you get a different thing. I was thinking about this and really what I believe is happening is we are prioritizing to be seen in two dimensions and from the front because we're prioritizing not our lived experience
Savannah Rose (17:54.555)
you
Savannah Rose (18:07.515)
Hmm.
Gretchen (18:19.5)
not our body as it exists amongst other people in real life, but our bodies on flat screens in still images.
Savannah Rose (18:25.883)
Whoa. I love that. Mic drop.
Gretchen (18:28.526)
Yeah, ready? Here's more. And it relates to ancient Egyptian art, where if you like think about, you know, even like the whole like walk like an Egyptian thing, the reason why the Egyptian bodies were contorted that way is because they were working with two dimensions, a flat surface. And when you look at a foot from the front, it looks less like a foot. So they decided that every part of the body
should be presented from its most identifiable angle. And that's how they were able to get a sense of three dimensions within a flat surface. So, you the arms are like this, the torso's to the side, the heads are to the side. And that's how they prioritized for the rock surfaces that they were carving into and creating from. And so we're just doing the same thing with our lip fillers, looking at not our esophaguses and our tombs, but...
How do I look best as seen on a flat screen when I'm not moving?
Savannah Rose (19:31.737)
Yeah. Wow, you have me shook with that observation. That's such a good way to put it. Gosh, you're so right like that.
just fitting ourselves and like squishing ourselves into a whole other dimension and less expensive one too. If we're like 3D, 4D, so on and so forth and that expansiveness and that vibration is higher when we are literally compressing ourselves, bringing down that vibration to fit into that. That to me has me like, I'm have to turn all about that. That has me little messed up.
Gretchen (20:09.838)
Thank you.
Savannah Rose (20:11.325)
That's why, like, I love that. That's got me thinking so much. That's such a good way to put it. gosh, I mean, I think, like, I say the energetics behind it, because I'm such, like, a woo-woo, like, frequency girly, where that's something I really pay attention to, where, yeah, like, the 2D, like, that two dimension, second dimension, it's, I mean, it's taking something away from us when we are, like, making ourselves, like, compress into that. I feel like that's...
That can't be good. That just can't be good.
Gretchen (20:44.022)
Well, I think so much about it, and like, I know this is a huge part of your work, so I'd love to hear you talk more about this, because like, we have these bodies, and we have embodied experiences, and we do exist in this world where we can feel and taste and touch, but those are places where we can also feel pain and feel desire and feel, you know, a lack of fulfillment, and our bodies are signals to us, and so many of these changes, we've prioritized how we look over how we feel.
And yeah, I'd love to hear you sort of elaborate on what you've been seeing that, especially like if it's like maybe evolved like personally and also with your clients or, you know, not the clients, but, you know, share the things you're hearing.
Savannah Rose (21:26.791)
sure. absolutely yeah that's yeah you make me think of one thing in particular like where like the the feeling versus like how we feel versus how we look and to me in particular I think I see this a lot with with acne and I think gosh because one of the beautiful things that these apps can do is airbrush or like spot remove or whatever it is which I think from time to time can be good.
But what I see and have even experienced in myself and I have had to learn how to embody is like...
If this is something that is perpetual, of course we all get breakouts from time to time, like hormones and maybe we didn't wash off our makeup or whatever it is, but if it's something that's consistently showing up for us in our body, to me, like you said, that's a signal. That's a signal from our body of something is not balanced, something's not okay inside, whether it's nutrition or stress, I think is one of the biggest ones.
And it's so interesting because I've seen such a huge parallel in my career and even experienced myself that a lot of times acne will clear up post like trauma work, like trauma recovery when the body is finally feeling safe and that nervous system is finally able to come down, like the cortisol is able to come down, the acne goes away, which I think is so interesting. And gosh, even in my own journey with that, like healing,
sexual trauma specifically through ketamine treatments, which I'm trained in, but like part of my training was like going through the treatments myself. My whole body changed because due to that sexual trauma, I feel like my body was like suppressing its natural form because I didn't want to take up more space. Like I didn't want to be seen. That wasn't safe. My body was thinking. But when I was able to heal that trauma, I feel like this one, really stepped into my womanhood
Savannah Rose (23:25.653)
and got these things over here. I love them. They're great. But then also like my cycle is regulated and like my skin cleared up and I was like, wow, like that wasn't ever anything I needed to fix. That was really something I needed to heal. And now like I feel like I'm my best self. I physically feel my best and I think of a result of that look my best because it really is a result of that inner work. And I think if we're just constantly like I need to fix this, I need to airbrush.
thought I need to enhance this or whatever it is. We're never really addressing the truly loving thing that we need within ourselves and which is to give ourselves attention and care.
Gretchen (24:06.158)
Yeah, I love that you just said that it's something to heal, not something to fix. And I completely agree with you. Our bodies are constantly sending us messages and they're way smarter than we are. it's just like, they're always trying to help us. Like they want to be healthy and thriving and surviving and all of that. So thank you for sharing that personal story and the way that it relates to your idea of embodied knowledge, experience, healing.
because we can't just keep hiding behind these things, or we can. We can until we sort of can, it sort of hits the wall with us. And I'm personally a huge fan of somatic work, I think especially for women like us, and maybe a lot of your listeners of all genders, that when we're smart and we're used to being able to intellectualize,
Savannah Rose (24:39.451)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gretchen (25:02.092)
different forms of therapy that don't allow us to sink into our body, we can almost navigate around or it takes a lot more time when we have to go through language and we have to go through all of these filters and just some of these other ways to sort of cut through like, how am I feeling? What is my body trying to tell me? And, you know, it's not any easier to listen to ourselves when we think that, you know, we need to have a different body to begin with to even have that conversation.
Savannah Rose (25:09.413)
Mm-hmm.
Savannah Rose (25:19.867)
you
Savannah Rose (25:33.497)
yeah, you're so right. Like the bypassing of, like how these tools can sometimes be like used as like a way to bypass what's really going on. It also reminds me a little bit like about, cause I'm in a beautiful, wonderful, healthy, loving relationship now and I'm so grateful for my partner. But in the past I was in like a very unhealthy, toxic relationship and I remember...
And this, I did that mushroom experience like after that had ended. But I remember that when I was using these apps the most to transform myself and my ex and like everything I could, it was such a hand in hand relationship to just like how unhealthy I was at that time too. It was like, I didn't want to accept my reality and what was going on, but I can make the pictures really pretty. And I could like almost like convince myself that that was the
life that I was living and like that was the partner that I had. didn't have to like, this might be a little, I don't know, graphic, but I didn't have to like, because he had some issues with like addiction, I didn't have to like...
brighten his eyes because they were bloodshot. know, like, because in the photos I was like, well, can in the photo make him not look like he's like under the influence or something. You know, and it was like, I was like, was in love with that person that I created and it was so disconnected from the reality and disconnected from my body and like.
Gretchen (26:45.902)
yeah.
Savannah Rose (26:59.897)
girl get the hell out of here. it was interesting to see how it was used to bypass, was used to override a lot. But now it's like with my partner nowadays, like I can tell like I don't feel this need to change anything, but also like I feel pretty in this relationship because of my own inner work, but because like there is so much love there, you know, they say like a woman in love glows. That's so real. Like, cause the nervous system is safe and that's something that
Gretchen (27:03.346)
I'm not laughing at you, it's like, it's such a...
Gretchen (27:26.414)
you
Savannah Rose (27:29.841)
I think going back to, it's not anything that you need to fix, it's what you need to heal. And I think that sometimes when we are stuck in that trap of pleasing the 2D world, we are abandoning the rest of our lives.
Gretchen (27:44.973)
Yeah, I mean, I have this sort of strange experience that I think is related to this where I was in a relationship for a long time, married 20 years, went to prom, married for 10 years. And all in all, relatively good, but when I got divorced, I got my breasts grew crazy to the point where I wonder if my ex thinks I got a boob job. And I don't know, I was like, maybe my eating habits have changed.
Savannah Rose (28:04.835)
Yeah.
Savannah Rose (28:08.805)
Mm-hmm.
Gretchen (28:13.388)
I think there was a part of me that was stuck as a 15 year old and it, know, not his fault, not like, my fault, but as soon as I was in a different context, like I became significantly more womanly and it's just like, where did that come from? I think it's related.
Savannah Rose (28:16.89)
Yeah.
Savannah Rose (28:23.651)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I relate to that, yeah I know. Definitely my healing work, but yeah these things, I love them so much and I'm so proud of them. Because to me, I think they came almost as a gift and a rite of passage of my womanhood. And I think part of that was in accepting myself, loving myself, protecting myself, and then being in a relationship with a partner who honored that.
Gretchen (28:41.048)
Yeah.
Savannah Rose (29:01.941)
and then my body is like okay I feel safe and I'm just gonna like keep getting better and I'm like dang cuz yeah I can relate to everything you just said same thing same exact thing that's so funny yeah
Gretchen (29:09.422)
Yeah, same. Like, who gets pressed at 37? I did.
Savannah Rose (29:18.607)
That's so wild. One thing I wanted to touch upon too, just shifting gears a little bit that I think I would just love your thoughts on is like not just like the role of AI and and like how that's changing, like how we are perceiving beauty, how beauty standards are becoming and whatnot, but also in like just the makeup world in general. I'd love your thoughts on this too, because I'm a Barbie girl. I love makeup. It's so fun for me. But my makeup routine
has not changed in years. Like I feel like I found what I like and what works for my face and I don't really do anything differently. That's just me. But I've found like I'll see things show up for me like my algorithms like you're a 20-something, you're a woman, you should watch this. I'm like, okay. Where I'll see like all these makeup trends showing up and it's not something that like I have fully been able to understand because I'm like how can you really do
anything different? I feel like we have figured out makeup and have solved makeup. I'm like how are there new things that are showing up on like how to create these trends? I'm just so curious like what your thoughts are on that.
Gretchen (30:22.926)
I'm
Gretchen (30:30.732)
Yeah, I mean, think the whole sort of feedback loop with AI and fashion and beauty, like we make these modifications digitally and then we start to get plastic surgeries and modify them. really we're being, as we were talking about before, like with the lip fillers and the screen, like we're being informed very much by what is successful within certain media contexts. And it's also why I bring up the jaw for the Manosphere Men is because...
This has become this, not just like a beauty standard, but a symbol of masculinity, a symbol of power, a symbol of this like somewhat lost idea or clinging to idea of what it means to be a man. And it's something for people to hold onto and something that I feel like will solve their various problems and their idols have it. it's all like, it's like where plastic surgery was with women maybe.
Savannah Rose (31:06.491)
you
Gretchen (31:25.838)
30 years ago, think now women are much more open about plastic surgery. There's less shame in it. Whereas with men, I don't think these men are talking about it in the way that sort of cultural veil of shame around this stuff, think with women. And anytime there's a removal of shame, I'm 100 % for it. But there's less hiding of it, think, because it's been a larger part of the women's media culture for a while than it has at this whole manosphere.
But I think like the most important thing this is that feedback loop. we are, I like to say that we're almost like meeting the robots halfway. Sometimes when people get a lot of modifications on whether it's like virtual or like plastic surgeries that are informed by these virtual modifications. To me, they almost look like they're AI generated images that are just failing to look real. And like we're making ourselves look more and more like AI people. And AI people were trained on datasets where
Savannah Rose (32:02.906)
No.
Savannah Rose (32:15.44)
Thank
Savannah Rose (32:19.853)
and
Gretchen (32:23.414)
No one takes a bunch of photos when they first wake up in the morning or when they've just had a big cry or when they're like really hangry. Like these are not part of what's informed AI about what it means to be human.
Savannah Rose (32:34.393)
Yeah, that's such a good point. Yeah, that's such a good point.
I laugh because like I think back to these photos that I took, I thought they were good photos. I sent them to my mom and she was like, are you sick? And I'm like, no, I'm just tired. I'll make some up. But it's so funny. But you're right. Like it was, I thought it was a good photo. I think it was the best I could have done at that moment in time, but I was also super tired. But that's so funny. Yeah. It was such a point. What I found like the jawline specifically, how that's how like jawline surgeries are trending so much with women lately.
And I think that that blows my mind. It blows my mind because well first of all it's expensive like people will be like this cost me like 15k on my girl
Gretchen (33:09.538)
Really?
Gretchen (33:21.358)
You
Savannah Rose (33:21.487)
What? I never got my stone loans. I'm not trying to like buy new face. But to me it's almost, I don't really know the word for it, but I feel like it's almost, and of course like however someone presents is their choice, but I feel like the jawline, it is like you said, associated with masculinity. Not necessarily that like men who do not have a sharp jawline aren't masculine, but I feel like the rounder face is almost like a female birthright.
Gretchen (33:25.091)
Look.
Savannah Rose (33:51.233)
how we're learning design. We're designed to have like softness and curves and our face is part of that. And it's so intriguing to me like how people are shaping their jawline, like women specifically. And to me it almost makes me kind of sad because I'm like, I feel like it's not celebrating like femininity. It's not celebrating our womanly softness and it's just so interesting how that specifically became a trend because it is something that is like
I mean, I hate to say like a guy thing, because like again, it's not exclusive, but I just have found that to be so interesting because it is not like a natural thing. Like if someone wants to change their nose, I can understand like that's a certain type of aesthetic that's not really gendered at all. But like the jawline to me, I've just found that to be so curious.
Gretchen (34:41.762)
Yeah, I'm gonna have to look into that more. wonder, because I know with men, it's similar to the lip fillers with women. It has to do with being seen on a screen, often flat, literally podcast angle. And so maybe there is something about for all genders and all faces, what that jawline, how that pops in a certain media context. But yeah, I didn't know that, so I'm gonna have to look into the...
Savannah Rose (35:06.895)
Yeah.
Gretchen (35:10.188)
to the jaw surgeries.
Savannah Rose (35:12.442)
Bye!
That makes sense. think you're so right. I think you're right. think it is like part of that 2D kind of mentality because I know even with myself, I'll like see myself. I mean, I see myself on screen all the time and I'll be like, dang, I have a double chin. I'm like, what's going on? I exercise all the time. But I'm like, no, this is literally just my face. And it's yeah, it's like that conditioning piece because like, and even so, like I don't mind having like a soft round face because I'm healthy and that and I feel healthy. And that's like the thing that
Gretchen (35:28.556)
From the angle everybody does.
Savannah Rose (35:44.151)
I've really had to learn and even with my clients like because I do some like eating disorder recovery because having been in the modeling career like that will touch you in some way like I think people are very intentional about it, but it's gonna it's gonna show up for you like I remember being 16 17 years old and no matter how I looked this one incessant unhealthy agent that I had was just drop five drop five no matter what and gosh like
It was just so damaging at that time for me and because when you're a 17 year old you don't know how to Nor really should you like lose weight in a healthy way? So she's like well I guess I just won't eat and it was just so not good, but with my clients
And even with myself, I've had to learn how to teach your brain what healthy feels like and to then grow a whole other different level of self-acceptance. And then eventually, think appreciation for the aesthetic match. And I think it really does go hand in hand though, like with the healthy relationship piece and we have a natural glow up with that. It's like when we really are healthy and in that good relationship with ourselves, how we will
look our best, but it's our best. It's not like the the merged with the society best is our best and how like... Right! Right! It's so curious like how all that stuff is shaping out. I'm wondering like what are your like maybe projections for the future like with these kind of concepts? Like what are you hoping to see with these types of trends and how people are showing up?
Gretchen (37:06.524)
It's not AI's idea of what's best.
Gretchen (37:27.316)
I mean, I don't know if this isn't something I'm hoping for, but I think increasingly we're going to all have the same face. And now we've got Ozempic mixed into that, same face, same body. And it's fashion, ultimately beauty is fashion. And at some point this has to flip back to being like, hey, actually what we value is uniqueness. Scarcity always has more value. And I think we're in a weird cultural moment where we're all afraid of that. But I think ultimately...
Like I want to be the lady at the nursing home who like doesn't have that face. And I think that's going to be popping.
Savannah Rose (38:01.051)
Absolutely.
Yeah, and I think you're right. I think we have leaders in our society that are treasures when it comes down to aging gracefully. Like I think Pam Anderson is, she's such a trending person right now. Yeah, and it's well deserved because I think she in her early career was this depiction of like blonde bombshell implants, like the works, which I like love that for that stage of her life. But I also feel like it's been so cool to see her evolution of like literally say
Gretchen (38:13.931)
asking state office.
Savannah Rose (38:34.045)
Like it would be weird if I was like wearing makeup right now like it would be weird if I was like Trying to act like I'm not and I just think that that radical Self-love is so cool, but the people have been doing that for ages, too think Alicia Keys is another like amazing example like someone who's as far as I know like has never really worn makeup in the industry of being an entertainer. I just think that's like so Cool of just like that. I know that I'm enough. I'm showing up in this way and
And I think that almost gives people permission to continue to do that.
Gretchen (39:09.452)
And yeah, think that's it. It's permission to be yourself, to feel secure in who you are. And then as you're seeing with makeup, sometimes it's fun. Sometimes it's out of a place of empowerment and fun. If you're having a good time, great, go for it.
Savannah Rose (39:18.816)
Yes.
Savannah Rose (39:25.655)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely for sure. Yeah, cuz I definitely can embrace the whole spectrum like
Like this is the first time I've worn makeup I think in a week or maybe yeah something like that because I try to not do it every day because I work from home so like if I'm not gonna be on screen I'm like what's the point? But even then like I'll still make some content like makeup free and whatnot but and then on the other end of the spectrum like I love to cosplay so like I love to like do heavy transformations because it's just it's just fun I like to dress up I'm a little girl at heart I really am
Gretchen (39:44.919)
you
Gretchen (40:01.047)
And that is where I've seen some of the really interesting uses of these apps is like in the trans community or people who are investigating gender and playing with that. I think that there is, you know, like I think these are edge cases though. Like, you know, it's, it's
But it is like there are, it is an interesting democratization, whereas before you had to be a famous model, you had to have someone else photoshopping and airbrushing you, and now like anybody can do this. So it's almost become an arms race as well for like the celebrities and the fashion people who do do this. It's like, when anybody can look like Kim Kardashian within like a couple clicks, it's like, what is Kim Kardashian gonna do?
Savannah Rose (40:42.363)
That's such a point. Yeah, it makes me think of...
Megan Fox because I feel like growing up she was this like she was our Pam Anderson in some ways like my generation she was this like symbol of beauty and and almost like a standard and early in her career like she didn't have any work done or very very minimal work and I remember her face just being like of an angel and now it's like it's been so interesting to see her transformation and how she's still Megan Fox
But it's so interesting to hear the conversation around like how we miss the like 2013 Megan and how like that was her prime and if you see her in interviews She has never felt that way and like she's never felt like pretty enough And I'm like girl like I know people who would have murdered to look like you like literally murdered But it's just so interesting like no one is immune to these pressures and like even if you have billions of fans and like people who
are trying to look like you, how again, if that place inside is not nourished, how it can still, it doesn't discriminate. It can show up for anyone. But I think from what I've heard, I think she's gotten to a better place with herself and I love that for her. I think she glows most when she's happiest and that's all I wanna see for anyone.
Gretchen (42:11.638)
I know it's like, you just said it, but I'm gonna say it again. it's like, I know it sounds like cheesy, but like, I think happiness is like the most attractive thing in the world. And the photos in which like people look happy, they always look better. that's just like, some of these apps do have a feature where you can like, it'll make you smile, but it is so creepy. Like it is not.
Savannah Rose (42:30.459)
Yeah, is creepy right? I know gosh it's like It's giving it. don't know, but it's yeah, it's giving like a horror movie almost in a way, but yeah, it's so interesting how This this I don't know like infatuation with the external. There's so much
Gretchen (42:42.958)
Yes.
Savannah Rose (42:52.505)
I like how you use the word investigation. There's so much investigation that can be available to us. That's where we really can feel the fruits of our labor the most. Like you said, the happiest people, they are the most attractive because I think they really are magnetic. I really think it is an energetic thing.
kind like that whatever you're putting out you get back. Like if you're putting out that you're happy, it's going to be reflected back to you. And I think people will perceive like not just the eyeball aesthetics, but the energetic piece of like, this is something that like I want to lean into.
Gretchen (43:35.818)
Absolutely.
Savannah Rose (43:37.211)
Well, I've just been obsessed with this conversation today. I feel like it's just flown by. I'm curious, did you have any other thoughts before, guys, I know I kind of like took us in all different directions, but did you have any other thoughts or like burning desires to share anything else with our listeners today?
Gretchen (43:54.511)
I just think that this can be a fun investigation. again, there's no shame in this. It's just thinking about those motivations and really connecting them to these deeper things of what is it that we want to do in this world? How is it that we want to feel? And I'm loving being able to be part of that conversation outside of the art world and more culturally. So just thank you for giving me the opportunity to connect with your community today.
Savannah Rose (44:19.515)
Thank you, absolutely. Oh, it's been my pleasure Gretchen, for sure. And so where can folks find you to see more of your series, to see more and hear more of your thoughts? Where can they track you down?
Gretchen (44:30.796)
Yeah, absolutely. So my Instagram at Gretchen Andrew is very active with a lot of content and videos that cross both how I make these works and then trying to start broader cultural conversations around, like I said, the lip filler and the ancient Egypt connection really becoming a place where people can connect and sort of ask these questions for themselves. And then if you do go to my website, gretchenandrew.com, do sign up for my email list because I've got fancy art parties all over the world all of the time. And I'd love to invite you guys.
coming up in London and Paris and Tokyo, so do stay in touch.
Savannah Rose (45:07.227)
Amazing. Look at you. I love that. You're such a thought leader, culture creator. That's so exciting. Yeah. And I will drop all of these links in the description for y'all so you can touch base with her and follow her journey. And Gretchen, thank you so much for spending the time with me today. I love this conversation. And I know that folks who have tuned in have been nourished by it and can't wait to see more of what you do.
Gretchen (45:29.548)
Thank you so much for having me, Savannah, and thank you for doing all of this work and connecting all of us together through it.
Savannah Rose (45:35.791)
Thank you, my pleasure. And for those of you all who tuned in today, thank you so much. This is Eclipse Evolution. Make sure to, again, check out Gretchen. Feel free to subscribe as well to stay in touch with for future conversations. And with that, I wish you all well and bye for now.
Gretchen (45:51.513)
Bye.
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